tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14247942.post1439657791559031991..comments2023-08-10T05:32:21.163-04:00Comments on An Examined Life: The Direction of Historical CausationVitae Scrutatorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12808120163472036743noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14247942.post-48843624784859988632007-05-23T23:54:00.000-04:002007-05-23T23:54:00.000-04:00I don't think you can take the case of England as ...I don't think you can take the case of England as representative of "the Reformation." While there were many with Protestant leanings among the English educated classes, the actual decisions about ecclesiastical polity were made in a political context for political reasons. That is why the Church of England was never decisively "Protestant" in the modern sense of the word - why it always tried to be <B>the</B> Church <B>of</B> England, encompassing everyone from moderate Puritan to High Churchman. And it is why, to this day, Evangelicals and Anglo-Catholics can debate the authentic identity of Anglicanism while co-existing in the same structure.<BR/><BR/>One could probably make a similar analysis of Scandinavian Lutheranism. One could argue that most of the major schisms of the Church up until this point were motivated more by political considerations than theological.<BR/><BR/>The continental Reformation, however, really was about doctrine. Political figures certainly used and manipulated it for their own purposes, but they did not create it and they could not control it.<BR/><BR/>On the contrary, Calvin and his cronies were religiously inspired to assume political control of Geneva, whereupon they imposed theocratic rule over the city.Arimatheanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06783088995172601340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14247942.post-24683048162353442352007-05-15T10:25:00.000-04:002007-05-15T10:25:00.000-04:00Scott:Thanks for the link.I hesitate to get polemi...Scott:<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the link.<BR/><BR/>I hesitate to get polemical with Trueman, especially since he's invited me to further discussion. But I have a hunch I'm going to need your and Jonathan's help with him, and I'm sure it will be forthcoming!<BR/><BR/>Best,<BR/>MikeMike Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18100363229707213441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14247942.post-39971906039737772432007-05-15T02:31:00.000-04:002007-05-15T02:31:00.000-04:00You raised the issue that I also found most perple...You raised the issue that I also found most perplexing. The part that I find most ironic is that Trueman didn't hesitate to label R.J. Rushdoony as a <A HREF="http://www.reformation21.org/Reformation_21_Blog/Reformation_21_Blog/58/userId__12/month__200612/vobId__4862/" REL="nofollow">Holocaust denier</A> who was <A HREF="http://www.reformation21.org/Reformation_21_Blog/Reformation_21_Blog/58/userId__12/month__200612/vobId__4872/" REL="nofollow">historically incompetent</A> at best. But when it comes to patristics or Reformation history, Trueman seems willing to give the same sort of obfuscation the benefit of the doubt. Granted, Rushdoony's reasons were probably more suspect from a historical perspective, but revisionism is revisionism, regardless of motive.<BR/><BR/>And it is hard to imagine how the claim of Trueman (not to mention McGrath et al.) that "the Reformation crisis itself precipitates the first elaborate formulation of justification by the Catholic Church" is not an effort "to impose anachronistic categories upon the first five centuries" in Trueman's own words. In the salvific categories of the patristic era, and particularly with respect to the salvific role of deification, it is hard to see how "we lack the context to make a definite judgment one way or the other." It seems that the information is more than ample to judge historical hypotheses. <BR/><BR/>I also fail to see how advancing no theory to explain the historical record is somehow superior to attacking "the typical knotty problems relative to how one defines Catholicism in order to find it in the early writings." This has been done by J.H. Cardinal Newman et al., and those Protestants who disagree with Newman's theory are rarely forthcoming with a counter-hypothesis. To cite Newman's own defense, "a thousand difficulties do not make one doubt," particularly when no other explanation does better. If anything, the LACK of such difficulties is the best sign one has succumbed to the temptation in intellectual history to idealize one's hypothesis in face of the facts. <BR/><BR/>The positive sign, however, is that Trueman appears willing to question even those who share his theology, so that he might be willing to question Calvin's understanding of both Scripture and the Fathers. Trueman also appears willing to accept, if not the authority, then at least the persuasive power of the ecumenical councils, and that might well cause him to question the deviation of the Reformers from them (e.g., Calvin's autotheos, denial of the eternal begetting of the Son, and Nestorian construal of the extra Calvinisticum).CrimsonCatholichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08623996344637714843noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14247942.post-65269029071669758542007-05-14T22:48:00.000-04:002007-05-14T22:48:00.000-04:00BenThanks for the comment!Stripping of the Altars ...Ben<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the comment!<BR/><BR/>Stripping of the Altars is a great book, and it's in there, I think, that you'll find much of the historical argument behind the claims that I've made (though I'm sure you're right that things are more complicated than I've made them out to be). But you should also check out his book The Voices of Morebath, which is less technical than the Stripping of the Altars but is still a fantastic read.Vitae Scrutatorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12808120163472036743noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14247942.post-71384443734348146942007-05-14T21:06:00.000-04:002007-05-14T21:06:00.000-04:00Well, I agree that much of the Reformation was abo...Well, I agree that much of the Reformation was about political and economic issues wearing theology robes, but what I think Trueman-via-Oberman was trying to say is that the theological differences between the theological actors of Rome and those of the Protestants was about the nature of tradition. (Which I also disagree with, I think it was pretty much a straight up-or-down vote on any sort of role for tradition.) Still though, I also disagree with the statement that economics and politics were the main dividers in this debate, people of the time really did act upon what they believed, and they really did have real differences in belief. The politics certainly didn't help things though. <BR/><BR/>Anyway, which Duffy book are you referring to? I loved his "Saints and Sinners" history of the Popes, and I look forward to reading "Stripping of the Altars." Any others I should check out? I'm always sort of surprised that he's not more well known.bgeorge77https://www.blogger.com/profile/14524051055544962510noreply@blogger.com